Group talk:Hardware/Certifications/Respect Your Freedom/Criteria

Suggestion: Include Criteria For Components

When buying parts or even assembling a new machine, it is important to know if they are going to work with GNU software. Lack of drivers, documentation, or hidden functionality may cause a purchase to go to waste.

Include a verification that endorsed components are open and operational under GNU software. Firmware like the BIOS can hide spyware and should also be subject to audit...even if they are not readily upgradable.

Suggestion: Communicating with Customers

Suggested addition: "Manufacturers will be open for communication with and try to cooperate with internet product fora that are moderated by active users and/or software developers for a certain product."

Suggestion: Clarify documentation freeness scope

Let us say a large corporation releases an FSF-endorsed music player, the Foo Player, which comes with a complete manual, which is under a free license. Its book division also releases "Foo Player: The Idiot's Guide". Is that book required to be free in order to get the endorsement? The current guidelines suggest that it might have to be. However, other companies do not have such a restriction on the books they ship about the Foo Player. It would be overreaching, in my view, to disadvantage the company who makes a product in this way, in comparison to its competitors, in order to get the endorsement. And the disadvantage is greater for larger companies with more divisions, which is unfair. As long as sufficient free documentation is available to understand and use the product, that should be enough. Perhaps we could say that all documentation shipped with the product, or necessary to understand the product's features, should be free? -- Gerv 09:30, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion: Reconsider or restate basis for "Incompatible Endorsements"

This section says, in part:

"because these would give an appearance of legitimacy to those products, and may make users think the product requires them"

As far as I know, running Windows is not illegal in any jurisdiction. The FSF may consider software freedom to be a moral issue, but the act of running proprietary software is usually not a legal one. Also, I think it is unlikely that, if a box bears both "Works with Windows" and "Made for Mac", then a consumer will think that _both_ are necessary for the product to work. I am not sure the logic of this section withstands scrutiny. If you are worried about this problem, surely the right thing to do is require that a "Works with GNU/Linux" badge (or whatever) is given equal prominence to the Windows and/or Mac badges?

Pragmatically, making product creators choose between the FSF's badge and other badges means that a lot of products which do respect a user's freedom will end up not marked as such, because the company thinks that consumers need the reassurance of these badges to know that the hardware works with their OS. If the aim is to a) encourage products which respect freedom and b) let consumers know which products do and don't, then this outcome is bad for the campaign and bad for consumers. Yet, "Works with Windows" and "respects freedom" are not incompatible concepts, as the FSF acknowledges. -- Gerv 09:30, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion: The guidelines should require equal billing for "free software" over open source, not "more prominent" billing

The FSF wishes to promote "free software", understandably. But many more people understand "open source". Putting the two terms together is an aid to understanding for the reader. Explanatory text on a product box like: "All software used in this product is both free software and open source software" would be prohibited by this restriction. But I think this should be OK. Are we going to require product creators to bump the font size of the words "free software" by half a point in order to pass this criterion? That seems unnecessary.

It is completely right that the criteria should not permit "free software" to be given lesser billing than "open source". -- Gerv 09:30, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Use of GNU/Linux

What does it mean for an operating system to "include GNU"? If I ship something which has no GNU software except a copy of glibc, do I have to call it GNU/Whatever? -- Gerv 09:30, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

What does "and more" mean?

At the end of the first paragraph of #Respects_Your_Freedom, what does "and more" mean? It's a list of things the device "must" do:

• run free software on every layer that is user upgradeable
• allow the user to modify that software
• support free data formats
• be fully usable with free tools
• and more.

Maybe it should be removed. Or, if it has a meaning, the meaning should be explained. Ciaran 13:47, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion: Different Levels of Endorsement/compliance

Following up with what Gerv said earlier; many hardware makers will be unwilling to meet all of the criteria, despite their products actually meeting some of the most important criteria. Insisting on strict compliance with every criteria in order to receive endorsement will force participation to be low. The "incompatible endorsements" aspect will basically force otherwise free hardware makers not to participate because, unfortunately, the vast majority of end users utilize OS/X and Windows operating systems.

I suggest that the most critical aspects of the criteria, namely 100% free software, user installation of modified software, and compilation, be sufficient to attain a separate endorsement, say a "bronze" endorsement. Hardware makers that meet more or all of the criteria could be given "silver" and "gold" endorsements, respectively.

Suggestion: Make clear hardware freedom limits

Quoting:

 they say the hardware must run free software on every layer that is user upgradeable

Thats a interesting and tricky way of saying,

Okay,  this hardware or lets called in someway "lockware" have some layers, that user can not or even may never will able

to touch or care because llegally or technically reason like lack of documentation about how do to do it. My point actually is that there there is non-free-firmware as ROM/FLASH doing things to-work in some hardware layers up or between.

But this is okay.. free sofware movement is doing a great work around gpl and sofware freedom itself, just it good make clear that hardware is tricky/lock-down and we put a free sofware layer on it :). But at the end we can deal with. But be should be aware of hardware limitations in term of non-free-software embeded on it

Suggestion: Customer Service

Certification should cover quality of customer service. A device could be packaged separately as a free-software product but also exist packaged as a non-free product (ie for Windows). Customers must NOT discover that they have less or lower quality after-sale support when opting for freedom. Customer service should be equal to or greater than that offered to customers who use the device through non-free software. We should require that from sellers. -- Mathieug 19:20, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion: FSF Endorsed vs fully usable with free software only

The FSF should only endorse products that fully respect computer users' freedoms and the proposed endorsement criteria do that just fine. However, there are realities we cannot ignore such as this one: it is already the practice in the industry to ship computer devices (printers, graphics card, external drives, etc.) in ONE package that includes software drivers for Windows and Mac. Free software needs to be there as well.

The FSF should consider a different certification mark for products it cannot endorse (because they are bundled with non-free software) but which are nevertheless freedom friendly because they are bundled with free software driver(s). This certification label would simply mean that the product is out-of-the-box fully operable through a computer running only free software. -- Mathieug 19:20, 15 October 2010 (UTC)